Forks too soft bttoming out.

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chris21590

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I went to the bush a few weeks ago with some mates. They were all on big bikes like suzuki etc, we were going around and i hit a rut pretty fast im not sure how fast maybe 40 or 50, but the forks bottomed out (the bikes a Pitpro 125rr) and one seal blew completely out like all the fluid and seal and all. We took the bike bak later that day and my mates dad fixed it up, wedged the seal bak, put a dust cover on it and zip tied it. That worked all good its still holding up but my problem is that they super soft.

I just sit on the bike and they bottom out 1/3 and if u push down on front end or try a stoppie they go around 2 inches from completely botoming out. Is there any way to make them stiffer like do u just put thick oil in or do u have to change the springs or something. Any help would be appreciated thanks
Chris
 
yeh tighten the spring up abit maybe?? i like the quick fix but maybe fix it proplly or get a new one??
 
The reason your forks are now soft is because they don't have oil in them.

your fork must be a oil pressure fork like most motorbike forks,
the springs are not the only thing that helps keep the fork up, inside a motorbike fork there is generally a open bath of oil around the coil springs and damping system, there is also a "Air Space"

There is normally a factory preset area of "air space" inside the fork,
how much air space there is, is dictated by the quantity of oil inside the fork.

When the fork compresses the oil moves upwards and compresses the air, the further the air is compressed the harder it resists the compression.

if you don't have enough oil in the fork, then the air space becomes so large that near bottom out the air isn't compressing enough to reduce or stop the fork from bottoming out.

There is 3 things that stop your fork from bottoming out,
1. Compressed Air Space
2. Your Damping System
3. Your Coil Spring

All of these things have a certain role to play in suspension,
the coil spring is more to do with getting a good sag and overall rate,
the damping provides a controlled action, both stopping the fork moving too quickly or too slowly in either direction, the Air Space compression works with the Compression Damping and the spring to make the fork feel firmer or softer, and help assist the coil spring and damping system in resisting bottom out.

The damping system alone cannot stop you bottoming out, it needs a combination of the three systems in place inside your fork.

In regards to your fork failing, the Oil seal is put under massive pressure, when the fork isn't compressed there is no real force on the seals, however at bottom out there is MASSIVE force from the air space being compressed, or in other words there being compressed air.

if you put too much oil inside the fork, then 3 things can happen, 1. you can bottom out on the oil before the fork reaches its full travel, 2. The Fork becomes too stiff, 3. The Fork seals Fail and explode oil and crap everywhere.

it's unlikely that your oil seal will continue to hold heavy oil pressure without blowing, the specification of how much oil you can use in your fork varys only by about 5-10ml per leg.

if you go too far either way, your fork will either bottom out, or blow seals.
that 5-10ml of oil can make a MASSIVE difference to the way your fork feels, in terms of spring rate and firmness.

I suggest you remove the fork legs from the bike (take off the wheel, the brakes ect, remove the legs from the clamps)

on the side that "isn't" blown, remove the top cap, slide out the spring, and tip the oil into a measuring cup, pump the insides of the fork until ALL the oil is out.

then remove the oil from the other leg, and fill both sides with the measured amount of oil from the right leg, with Fresh 5wt Dirt Bike fork oil.

after you have reassembled the fork, try it, if it rebounds tooo fast then you will need heavier oil, switch to 10wt, and try again. once you find the right rebound vs oil weight, then ride the fork, if it feels too soft and bottoms out easily, come back and add 5ml of oil to each leg. then ride again. you want to be able to use ALL of your travel (all but maybe 2-5mm) on big hits or landings, If you can't then you risk blowing the seals again, and it might not be so pretty next time.

when testing the rebound, make sure you compress the fork as deeply as you can, (push bloody hard) when it rebounds it should rebound quickly, but controlled. As in it should return to it's original position as fast as possible without feeling like it's pogoing or bouncy.

You may find the further you compress it the slower it rebounds, it's important to get he rebound right for deep compressions, you don't want to be going over stutters and after the 4th one you have no suspension left cause it can't rebound quickly enough.

Hope this helps.
Juls
 
Juls is almost on the money above. However you should also consider if the spring is progressive rate or single rate.

Progressive rate springs have coils unevenly spaced to sag a bit before it gets harder to compress. Single rate springs are evenly spaced coils that have the same resistance throughout its compression. I have no idea which type pittys use.

The problem could now be (disregarding the oil for the moment) 'binding', meaning that the spring was violently compressed and the spring was at its full compression. This can damage the spring, either by not allowing the spring to return to its full length, meaning that spring itself is now shorter and the forks sit lower under its own weight. You could also have broken the spring.

The oil controls the dampening, but not 'sag'. The spring alone controls sag.

If dampening is the problem (which it doesn't sound like it is) then topping up or replacing altogether your fork oil may solve the problem with the feel. I wouldn't go to 10wt, but stick with fresh 5wt. Going the heavier oil will only increase the chances of blowing the seals again, as the valves that control dampening can only flow so much (thinner) oil at a given rate. If compression were to happen quickly, the oil would not flow thru the valve fast enough and must go somewhere so it can blow out the seals again!

My money would be on damaged internal within the forks. Most likely the springs. I'd recommend replacing the springs or the forks altogether.

Ricky did use 7.5wt oil in the forks of his race bike. But they were Showa forks with RaceTech gold valves to suit and 0.8 springs. Now he uses Ohlins 0.9 springs with 5wt oil. Even he wouldn't use 10wt oil.

[disclaimer: comments assisted by consultation with Ricky] lol
 
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The only thing thats changed since he bottomed out the fork is there is now less oil in his forks.

thats the only thing that would be making the forks softer.

the springs ARE designed to be able to bottomed out in ANY fork,
it is highly unlikely that the spring would be damaged if the fork hit it's bottom out stops, since suspension forks are designed to hit there stops
on a regular basis, any quality suspension mechanic will tell you that you with proper suspension setup you will use ALL your suspension at least once on each serious ride.

Unless a bogus spring is installed, the fork will hit it's stops LONG before the spring reaches it's limits and doesn't return anymore.

you would have to go to 30wt oil to be able to get even close to damaging the seals with the compression damping, even then your theory is bogus, because it's the compressed AIR that stops the oil from shifting, forcing the oil to flow through the compression damping circuits. Which allows resistance from bottoming out.

if there is too much air space in the fork, then the oil DOES NOT NEED to flow through the compression circuits, rendering them ineffective, so then the fork just bottoms out at the stops with no resistance.

if there is too much oil in the fork, the fork will bottom out ON THE OIL, it won't be able to hit the metal to metal (possibly with rubber bump stop) bottom out point because there is oil in the way!!, which means the seals take all the pressure of the compressed air and oil inside the fork until something (namely the seal) fails.

it is AIR and OIL PRESSURE inside the fork which blows the fork seals.

It is the Airspace inside the fork which allows the compression circuit to operate, and it is the airspace inside the fork which allows the damping circuits to resist bottom out.

Either way the fork oil in the stock forks is cheap crap china oil,
replace it with nice quality oil, start at 5wt go from there.
there is different weight oils to accomidate different designs of forks,
what works for one fork, doesn't neccessarily work for the next, Suspension forks ARE NOT designed equally.

I often find for china forks that 5wt is too heavy however.. and opt for 2.5wt.. where italian forks (marzocchi) i find work better with 7.5-10wt. Some Taiwanese forks I've rebuilt needed 20-30wt oil to operate optimally..

Start at 5wt, work either way from there.

It is worth noting however, that everything spoken here does not relate to the fastace AS02/AS03 and similare designs, as they are a sealed cartridge fork, not a Oil Pressure fork.

Juls
 
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The only thing thats changed since he bottomed out the fork is there is now less oil in his forks.

thats the only thing that would be making the forks softer.

... and possibly internal damage!

Springs = preload (length of travel)

Oil and valving = dampening (speed of travel)

Properly set up forks should not bottom out.

the springs ARE designed to be able to bottomed out in ANY fork, it is highly unlikely that the spring would be damaged if the fork hit it's bottom out stops, since suspension forks are designed to hit there stops
on a regular basis, any quality suspension mechanic will tell you that you with proper suspension setup you will use ALL your suspension at least once on each serious ride.

Unless a bogus spring is installed, the fork will hit it's stops LONG before the spring reaches it's limits and doesn't return anymore.

What? :confused:

Forks should never bottom out. Never. They are not designed to bottom out. Even under the hardest treatments, racers leave 1 inch of travel in the forks. They never bottom out. It is not healthy for the forks at all, and its not normal. Forks are not designed to hit their stops and blow out seals and bind springs. Chris has mentioned he is losing 1/3 of his travel. That is a spring problem.

The correct spring should be chosen for the rider's weight. Then the sag is set for a certain amount under the weight of bike and rider. If that bottoms out then a stiffer spring is needed. Fork oil is not used to control spring rate (or length of travel), it is used to control dampening the compression and rebound (the speed of travel). Racers always favour aftermarket valving and 5wt oil, rather than going for a heavier oil.

[disclaimer: comments assist by consultation with Ricky]
 
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thanks for the help with the forks, ill try and see if i can put some decent oil in, but after that im gona save for a set of fastace forks.

Thanks

Chris
 
What? :confused:

[disclaimer: comments assist by consultation with Ricky]

Dude, you don't even read my posts properly, half your replys read as though you joined sentances of what i wrote together with half of the content missing in your head.

you obviously have never rebuilt large quantities of different suspension forks yourself, and your just repeating what someone else is telling you badly.

Your talking about 1-2 peoples race forks.. what they do and what happens to the rest of the thousands of available forks on the market is a different thing.

yes for 99% of the time you want to have that 1" of travel left,
but if you set them up so they can NEVER bottom out, then you will blow the seals. The biggest contribution to stopping bottoming out is the oil height. Not weight or otherwise..

This Guy DOES NOT HAVE RACE FORKS ... LOL
He DOES NOT have any type of ADJUSTMENTS! so the ONLY adjustment he can use to control the damping is vary the oil weight.

Race forks HAVE ADJUSTABILITY so it doesn't matter really what oil you use, the adjusters can be adjusted to achieve the desired feel.

stop repeating rubbish that does not reflect the use or repair of Cheap China pitbike forks.
 
You recommend heavier oil, then recommend 5wt.

Bottoming forks is normal then? Bottoming out forks does no damage?

I know what works and what doesn't. Communicating that here is always met with opposition and insults. Whether they're race forks or pitty forks, they all work on the same principle. One last time: springs affect the length of travel, and oil affects the speed of travel (dampening).

I brought up racers because their forks are used under extreme conditions ... and they have 1" in reserve. So a recreational pitty should have the same or more, and should NOT be bottoming out.

yes for 99% of the time you want to have that 1" of travel left,
but if you set them up so they can NEVER bottom out, then you will blow the seals.

Which is it? How can the spring rate blow out seals. Do all the GP and MX boys running stronger Ohlins springs blow their suspensions all the time??? I not going to bother justifying this any further. Your just looking for the challenge and putting words in my mouth now.



Chris, go with what Juls says, his a bright spark. When ya bike breaks again PM me. I'm done with this topic.

... or perhaps a bit of light reading will help, note references to 'bottoming out' being a BAD THING:

http://londonbikers.com/articles/aba224f7-3414-4cd4-a083-14a633134c58

Mountain bike action

Full Suspension tune-up

La Cordée. Suspension Forks
 
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Hey hey hey, settle it down boys. You know your both right in some way.. This may be a heated discussion but as Divy said.. Anything can be solved over a case of beers.. Ricky, I think you better head over to Juls house and have a few beerz uleh.

Im free, if anyone wants me? :cold+alone:
 
my point simply is, Oil height has a dramatic effect on the fork bottoming out or not, it is used in conjunction with the spring rate and the dampening.

5mm of oil height difference can be the difference between bottoming out or not bottoming out.

the only thing that changed between the guy riding his bike before the oil seals blew and after, is that the oil height in 1 leg was reduced after.

therefore the problem with his forks being soft and bottoming out is that the oil level is too low, therefore the natural air spring inside the fork is not operating optimally.

everything you have said indicates that you believe the airspace in the fork has no effect on it's operation. I completely disagree.

you can take it or leave it, but that is whats wrong with this guys fork.
his springs didn't magically disintegrate.

Juls
 
everything you have said indicates that you believe the airspace in the fork has no effect on it's operation. I completely disagree.

I never once mentioned airspace ... for or against.

You can stop putting words in my mouth. How about you have a read of those links then?

[okay, I lied ... now I'm done with this topic]
 
i'm sorry to keep this going,
but you gave me old links to mountain bike suspension,
which is irrelevant because the ONLY mountain bike suspension
that is even Slightly like motocross forks is Marzocchi HSCV Downhill forks.
MTB forks are normally COMPLETELY DIFFERENT because regular dirt bike style open bath designs are usually considered too heavy.

and you gave 1 link to road bike suspension setup, which is still irrelevant.

These are what you should be reading.

ThumperFaq: Adjusting Fork Oil
Peter Verdone Designs - Oil Height
4Strokes.com - Tech: Fork Oil Adjustment - By Michael Hetrick

It clearly points out why the oil height is the reason his forks are suddenly soft.

it is also worth noting, the guy we are trying to help in this post, only has 2 adjustments available to him, oil height and oil weight.

Juls
 
hi folks i'm new to the scene buthave been readin all your coments with interest. I bought an atomik 125 and have a simillar problem with the forks bein way too soft.. i followed your advice and pulled em apart only to find no oil in mine... i put 100ml in but when i put the top cap on and compressed the fork oil came out the top cap.. there's little holes around the nut type part??? have i broken some type of internal seal or something or are my forks just dodgey thanks
 
Most pit bikes come with springs setup for small people, ie children or teenagers. Only the expensive 'race' type pitbikes (ie motoverts etc.) come with suspension designed for adults.

Therefore, the suspension is too soft for larger people. You need stiffer springs to suit this weight, front and rear. Most cheap pit bikes don't have a facility to easily change this so your options are:

Increase the preload on the springs. Not too hard, but not a trivial thing. I've done this on my Pitpro 125RR and it works quite well.
Buy stiffer springs. Expensive, yet to find a supplier in Australia for this.

Once you have this, you will need to change the dampening to match the increased spring rate. Easiest way is to change the forks oil. No idea what stock is, but it's bugger all I know that. I went for 20weight, but I would think 10-15 would be good for dirt, 20 I use for Motard.

Even then, the quality of cheap forks is pretty ordinary. If you want a good front end, you'll have to buy better quality forks.

My 2cents, hope it helps :)
 
Your AGB29 forks are NOT oil bath forks,
they do not use oil pressure to resist bottom out and aid spring rate.

they use a sealed oil cartridge at the bottom of the fork, the springs just run in grease, your legs do not have oil seals on them, only grease wipers.

There is 2 ways to firm up your forks,
1 is to add air pressure to the schrader valves at the bottom of the fork legs,
the other is to try to find some stiffer springs, I tried to get some made, it was going to cost about $80, but the guy at the spring shop basically said the springs that are in the fork, already are as stiff as they can be, if I had stiffer springs made, then they would bottom out/bind on themselves before the fork bottomed out and damage the new springs, and they may not return.

Juls
 
ok guys thanx for gettin back to me so quick.. Sound's like juls is on the money.. i'll try the air pressure thing 1st and i'll save up for a better quality set. where would i start to look for them cos i've asked all the mob's around my area that sell these bikes and basicaly they don't know anything about them..(great help hey)what brand is gonna be decent without costin an arm and a leg.
Thanx again
 
Juls
ive been reading up alot of other threads you've posted and have found out what i need to know obout my current forks. i'll get a pump onto it soon and keep readin stuff to find out about alternative forks for my bike. this site is awsome and its good to have people who post helpful and well informed information for others like myself.. keep up the good work people
 

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